Beyond the Labels: authentic representation in media, entertainment, and corporate spaces

Jharrone Martis: Hello everyone, and welcome to Ripple Conversations, the podcast where we explore what it takes to create meaningful change in our world. I’m your host, Jharonne Martis, and today we're tackling a powerful topic the importance of authentic representation in media, entertainment and corporate spaces. Representation goes beyond just the checkbox. It is about telling real stories, challenging stereotypes, and fostering inclusive environments. I'm honored to have two extraordinary guests with us today, Doctor Tessy Ojo. She's the commander of the order of the British Empire and chief executive officer of the Diana Award and Dr Zandi Ndlovu. She's the founder of Black Muster Seed and former head of EDI for an international bank and wealth manager. Welcome, ladies. How are you today? Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Good. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Thank you. Thank you for having us. Jharrone Martis: Let's start with authentic representation and why it matters. Representation can shape how people perceive themselves and others. Can you each please share an example where you saw authentic representation in action and the impact it had on you or your community? Dr Zandi Ndlovu: So I'd love to. I'm going to keep it light though. So my experience, I guess, of authentic representation was really in film. Black Panther being the one that I was. It's weird. So we've not prepped, not really going. Jharrone Martis: Nuts. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: But I think it's I think it demonstrates the power that that had because the movie visibility being seen, being visible, being validated and also kind of, the negative stereotypes of what typically black people are seen as. It's shattered all of that. So it was really about us being sort of technologically advanced. I remember watching it. I didn't really watch listen to the story the first time I watch it, because I watch it several times, but I felt so proud. Yeah, I walked out there like inches taller. Proud of what? My background, my heritage, my culture. My dress, you know, having natural hair. All of those things for me was I. Dr Tessy Ojo: I it's so funny that we've picked almost the same example because for me, that was a defining moment around a different black narrative, where in the past, black narrative is always around the struggle, servitude, always from that lens of we've rescued this people. Oh, my back story. Enough of the back story. What Black Panther did was really showing futuristic Africa was just talking about the black identity from a level playing field, the same way we've had all the superheroes. For me was also about you're right, the, the, the clothing, the, you know, common color of. I remember me and my girlfriends, we went to war. We all wore something amazingly colorful. We actually changed our WhatsApp group to "Wakanda Forever." Yeah, we still have that. And so to me, you just felt so powerful for me that Wakanda was something. I don't even know what it means in real life, but it was something that that kind of said power. I'll tell you, another film that did that for me was The Woman King. That was I'm not a moment where I thought this was very female. So I thought what Black Panther was about being black and my identity, the Woman King was about. 'I'm female, I'm powerful and I'm unstoppable, and nothing's going to change.' But I know that for myself. Right? But having seen that on a screen, seeing the little girls see that it's not about being the king's wife or the king's concubine or the king sidekick. You are the king, you know. I mean, you are the woman king. Jharrone Martis: Yeah. Dr Tessy Ojo: And it sounds so ordinary, but when you come from a place where the the most representation you see is from a negative place where for the average, for the majority, they're used to seeing they have that it felt they felt like a privilege to suddenly see this, which it shouldn't, it shouldn't be a privilege. Right, right. It should be your every day. Jharrone Martis: It should be normalised one. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Hundred percent absolutely. I think if I just give a quick work example because I know we're talking about media and corporate, I spent 15 years working in South Africa. And it was post-apartheid. So we just seen the first black President Mandela, come through. And we were now in the in Mbeki-era. And I chose to go and work out in South Africa. And I worked at a university that was historically black university, so had a black vice chancellor, a black academics, black professional staff. And then again, Having come from the city here in London, where you're kind of one of a few having, you know, that sort of level of education, and authority was just so inspiring and empowering to me because I could then say, well, I can do this. Jharrone Martis: I can be this representation matters. Representation really matters. And it's interesting how you both coincidentally. Yeah, yeah, the Black Panther was. Yeah, Dr Tessy Ojo: Can I share another quick story. I was speaking to a, a team of head teachers in a London borough, which I'm not going to mention just to protect them. But in the morning I went to speak at a college. And I'll talk about that later. But in this, when I was speaking to the head teachers it yesterday evening, we were talking about leadership. And from the lens of equity. And there was one black head teacher. She wasn't the head teacher. She's head of faculty in a she's a black lady in a very south London, borough, which is very diverse, very mixed. However, when she was appointed to that role, she just really like that the students came around. How her window and the peeps through. And she didn't really understand what they were doing. And I think by the fourth or fifth time she decided, I'm going to confront these kids. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: I was like, yeah. Dr Tessy Ojo: Yeah. As she came out, she said to them girls, what's going on? And the girl said, "Miss, rumour has it that there's a black senior management staff in the school, but we've never seen it. We don't believe it. So every day we've been checking this out means. Is it true?" And she said, "Yes, I'm the new head of faculty." And the girl said to her, "Miss, is this your office?" She goes, "Yes." And it is like when she says, yes. The girls go, "yes", and try this one final question. She goes, "Miss, does that mean that white teachers report to you?" And she goes, "Well, I don't see that. I see that I have a, a team that we work together." And the girl says, so basically your your, their boss and she didn't ask about the girls talk. Not good. Yeah. And they run and pursue sexual. Very. This is a inner London school, right. These girls we have like year 11 so they will be about 1516. They had never ever in their history of that school had a black senior leader. What does that tell them? She said she was so shocked by the fact that she almost became something. That was they they kept checking it out. Like, is it true? Is it true? Jharrone Martis: It's interesting because that goes back to the movie that you guys were talking about, Black Panther, you had when you saw it, you felt something very powerful, which also then, you know, brings us to stereotypes, right? Like how do stereotypes in media and entertainment like these movies reinforce, reinforce biases in society or and the opposite, you know, it reinforced something good. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: So yeah, I think I mean, there's several places that those biases show up. Yes. They support corporate and sort of recruitment and promotion of stuff. They show up in the criminal justice system in terms of harsher sentencing. They show up in education. So, you know, people having access or not having access or even the expectations are placed on, on black kids, for example, to say you can achieve this or you can't. So I think, you know, far reaching, implications of stereotyping, what your experiences. Dr Tessy Ojo: Absolutely. I think stereotype is so deep because what stereotype does it's completely generalize is or minimizes a whole group of people, reduces them to a couple of sentences, and those sentences are never in a positive way. And what let's go back to what was where the stereotype come from. So type is about language. Power. The domineering group, the group that has power uses language to minimize a group for their own good. If you look at generations, we're not. We're talking about representation in the broadest sense. If you think about like, we don't really celebrate at Holocaust Day, a few a few days ago, what happened in the Holocaust was all around minimizing the group of people reduce in a group of people to a few words. And the thing the danger is that when it starts with people who have power, they give permission to everybody else to to carry out the acts. So when in the in the media, every time a crime happens and only when it's a black person is a is that the race is mentioned, right? The headline is this black man did X. It completely tells you the story of black because when a white person commits a crime, what you hear is a crime was committed. It doesn't mention the race. So what you constantly hear associated with crime becomes black and crime paints a picture in your head. Now, whether you like it or not, you, the listener takes that on. I take you on as well, because all this is when it comes to internalized oppression. I don't hear anything different from you when the media says this race is X, directly or indirectly, you hear it. I hear it right. You believe it, I believe it. I then have to work twice as hard to almost deal with that internally to say, that's not me, I'm not going to let that label stick. Jharrone Martis: So you you mentioned the risk of misinterpretation. How do we counteract that? Then? Dr Tessy Ojo: So I would love to give you a formula. But I think that and I want to say something with all humility and all sincerity up until this day, the pressure lies on the on the group. That's that. The lies been told to counter the narrative. I have to show up every day proving myself to you that I'm not the narrative that you've been told. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Yeah, yeah. Dr Tessy Ojo: What does it look like? What? That exactly what that looks like for me. If I flip it back to. Let's take, what's that guy's name that had his knee on his neck? Right. George Floyd, what that looks like is your knee stays on my neck every single day because I'm having to show up every day ready to defend myself, ready to say to you. Look, for example, the other day I went to I love, I love matcha, everyone listening. If you wanted to get me some coffee, I want matcha. So I showed up at this coffee shop, to get myself a matcha. I didn't realize that I had left my card in the office. I was just on my lunch break and I thought, oh, damn, I've left my. Anyway, this girl at the table. Beautiful, beautiful girl, I said to her. I had placed the order. She I haven't bought two and she hadn't run it through. I knew was about 9 pounds. And she said to me and I began to look for my wallet. I'm like, oh my goodness, please cancel, cancel, cancel, I forgot I she looks at me and she says, I'll pay for you, you can bring it back. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, honestly, don't, don't worry. Like I'll go back to the office. She goes, no, no, no it's cool. Pay forward, pay to somebody else. I'll pay for you. And at that moment I looked at her so young black girl. And I just thought, you know, you I see you saw me. You know that this aunty I don't know from anywhere looks so responsible. I don't think she's trying to play one on me. Right, right. Me saying, oh, don't worry, don't worry, I'm going to. It's me always trying to prove that I'm not trying to play one on you like I do have 9 pounds. It's not that deep. Like that's a small example. But every day I show up, I have to show up. Almost working hard to convince you that I'm not the story that you've been told. Jharrone Martis: And that's because stereotypes reduce individuals to one dimensional characters to me. Dr Tessy Ojo: How do you how do we come back? Right? It's not on me. I didn't tell you that story. So society told you those who have power told you that story. They need to tell that story. Yes. You need to work hard on yourself to find the right story. I'm tired of having to read. Tell me a different to say no, no, no, no, that's not me. Because every the truth I might do stretches every day I show up, I show up, put it, make it. Try to tell you that I'm decent, I'm responsible, I'm good. I know my stuff. I'm clever, I'm brilliant. I've got three degrees. I've got this thing. It's exhausting. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Yeah. It's like I think I. Yeah, I 100% agree with everything that you said. I think I've now in my life come to a stage where I don't feel that I have to keep telling my story. Yeah. And I think I, you know, overcompensated. So. Yeah. Also three degrees. I'm a qualified accountant. I'm this I'm that a doctor? But who am I trying to prove that to? Jharrone Martis: Right. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Because, I mean, I can't satisfy everybody. So I think it's a it's all of our responsibility, right, to change the narrative. Dr Tessy Ojo: I don't really care anymore if you don't, if you if you want. If you want to know me. No, me, I don't I don't have the pressure that I had when I was in my 20s. Yeah, right. I don't, because as you say, I feel valued in myself. I have I know who I am, a more data sample that I don't need. But when I save that pressure, I know the pressure on the younger people. Yeah, I work predominantly with young people. I know the pressure on them. I've got two children in their 20s, right in the workplace. I know the pressure. They feel that they always feel that they have to work twice as hard, but they don't get the kind of grace that other people get. They know that in their appraisals that judge harshly, their errors are amplified and their achievements are minimized. This is what they go through. Jharrone Martis: So what would you tell them, like in your own personal example? What strategies have been effective for you in pushing the nuances to have fair representation? What would you tell the the 20 year olds? Dr Tessy Ojo: I would say this right. There's two things they have to survive. They have to survive. They have to navigate the system. I would say two things to them, and I have the privilege of speaking to both audiences. For them. I would say keep pushing, keep doing what you're doing. Work hard. Write down your achievements. When they minimize it, you tell, tell them. Put in an email, remind them, do a wrap report at the end of your week, at the end of your month so that people see you. Achievement. If no one tells your story, you tell it. You know you you. I would tell them all of that. But if I have the opportunity to speak to their bosses, which I also, from time to time, I do. I tell them the pressure of their lack of recognition. I tell them what it means when you have to work through a system without equity. I tell them the pressure. Especially when we live in a society that recognizes the impact of that. We are in a global mental health crisis. What you do to me is you add on, I already carry an invisible bag that you don't see. Right. So that's I have the privilege of doing both. But but when if we really want to move the lens, if we want to shift the dial and look at it from a lens of equity, we need to release the people who are oppressed. We need to release them of the pressure of retelling their story. Jharrone Martis: Dr Zandi, what would you tell those 20 year olds? Dr Zandi Ndlovu: So I worked, at an international bank and wealth manager, and I was in charge of graduate recruitment and development. So I had a number of graduates under my wing for the first 15 months, navigating the complexities of financial services and the and the culture of financial services. And after about two years, I start to see people drop off, mainly people of color and women y and I started asking that question because I was curious about what it was that we weren't doing, but also that they were doing and seeing what I had 20 years before. And I was like, well, what, you know, why hasn't this changed? Three reasons that they came up with. One was the lack of representation, and not because I just want to see someone who looks like me in a higher position, but because it signals to me that I can't grow here, that there's going to be too difficult for me to navigate and develop and be promoted. So I'd rather go elsewhere. So that was the first reason. The second reason was that depending on what team I was in and whether I had an inclusive leader or not, I would have a good time. I wouldn't have. And it was little examples like I'd be take in I as a black person might be taken to clients or not, and my white colleagues might be taking the clients or not. So there were those instances. And then the third was around experiences of microaggressions, where there was implicit or quite explicit. And for those reasons they said, actually, you know what? I don't want to be here. And so at that stage, it was still just focusing on the diversity part and not on the inclusion part. And that kind of kicked off a conversation about, well, what do we do to create an inclusive environment. But I think just to go back to your original questions, one of the things I think three things I would probably say to people is around speak up. If these experiences happen to you, speak up. You might not feel comfortable doing that with your immediate line manager. So find a space to do that, and it might be through your employee representation or resource group, or, some other colleagues or an ally. The second thing I'd say to them is role models. So if you're in a leadership position, role model, lift people up behind you, advocate for people. And the third thing, which is what you've said is around document discrimination, because what happens is you have all the experiences and think that they're nothing. And then you leave, without having actually community communicating what happened to you. So an exit interview is a great place for you to be. If you've decided now that you don't want to be here, it's a great place for you to say, well, these things have happened, but ideally, say it while you're there. Dr Tessy Ojo: And you see one of the real good things about documenting, especially your achievement, is sometimes you never get told them and you. And then this affects your own confidence. So I, like I say to my children every week, make sure you capture your achievements. Yeah. Because that's good for your own self-worth. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Yeah. Dr Tessy Ojo: Because sometimes you leave a place feeling that when your errors are amplified all the time and your achievements are minimized, you say, oh, I remember my daughter talking about a conversation she had was and someone said, oh, but you didn't quite lead that thing. Somebody else goes, what does lead me? Let's define it. I was the only person from this office that did that project, and I and I brought it here and I taught everybody. So how else do I qualify lead? Why are you why are you grappling? Why does the IQ that I use a word when I was the only person in this entire office that led on this project from from this. And I represented this office when I say I led the project here, why does that IQ and so but I'm like, capture the capital. Your achievement, even if no one tells you, at least you have it. And you can articulate that for yourself when you use it for your next application, you have your own record of achievement. Because if no one, you know, there's an African proverb and I don't quite remember, you say something about if you notice the lizard, the lizard is always nodding. And that's because nobody ever tells the lizard. That's great. So we celebrated. It's an achievement. I quote certainly not, because I don't know if it's true, but I really love that because it said something about look, celebrate yourself. If nobody else celebrates you. Jharrone Martis And you, you both have given us, lovely actionable steps that can actually be used. And these actionable steps are more for individuals. What actionable steps can organizations take, you know, to create a more inclusive environment, especially in the media, entertainment and corporate spaces? You both have worked in these spaces. What what would you tell an organization leader? Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Yeah, I think, oh, there's so many things we could be your day. But I think if. Jharrone Martis: You narrowed it down to 2 or 3, I would say that it needs to. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Be part of your corporate strategy, because what happens tends to happen is it gets outsourced to HR, to the head of EDI or others and not and not, you know, it's not embedded within the corporate strategy. And then the second thing I'd say that would be on my list of things would be about accountability, that actually leaders and everyone need to take accountability and that needs to be documented, needs to be measured, needs to be have, you know, continuously so and not just a one or done sort of approach. Dr Tessy Ojo: 100%. I think you've taken one of the points that I had, I think, I think we need to look at this from a place of belonging. We have to commit to creating environments where everyone feels that they belong. And the first thing to do is to find out who who doesn't feel that at the moment. So we need to firstly audit ourselves.I mean, all of that comes on that a robust EDA strategy. Jharrone Martis So if you don't feel like you're, included or represented, how do you change the system? Dr Tessy Ojo: What first you mentioned you you've ask. Then you go back to the people who don't feel included and you begin to ask them what two things you ask the people who feel included. Why do you, how what does it feel like. What does inclusion feel like to you. Because you are happy. You say you feel included. What does that look like for you? Then accept people who don't feel included to tell you. What does that look like for them? You can easily tell the difference. The difference would be things like, oh, I get, I get praise, I feel like I can progress, I feel, I feel like I get on with my peers. You begin some of these things and rocket science, you know, some of these things. It's about what makes one person thrive in this environment. And how do we replicate that for everybody? Well, how do we include those who don't feel included? How do we understand why they don't feel included so that they do all of that to fit into your EDI strategy? I often liken it to a manifesto. You know, when you have your back to have a new government, they produce this document of what they would do. And then when they get elected, everyone, including the media, begins to hold them accountable. I was listening to the news this morning and there was something about energy prices are going to rise. And immediately they were simple. The the Labor Party talks about this in their manifesto. They said energy prices are going to come down. And we were holding them accountable because they rooted down the false way to create an inclusive environment. Write it down, tell me what you're going to do and then begin to work towards it. But open yourself up. To be accountable, your leaders have to be accountable. They have to be transparent. This has to come from the top. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Can I just give an example? So just in terms of the doctorate that I did, what I was trying to understand, I did a professional doctorate, which is work based. I was trying to understand why was it that all the diversity and inclusion training that we do doesn't change behavior? That was my principal question. And what I did was I interviewed young people in their first year of work, and what I then decided to do said of having training that always said, this is unconscious bias, this is that. And everyone nods and they agree and they get it. But when they go back to their desks, they actually don't practice any of that. So what I did was I created a play as an alternative way of people engaging with a, with a, with a subject that can be quite complex. And what the play does is that it shows the complexities and nuances of what it's like to be excluded and included. It also gives you a sense of the emotional reality behind data, because we can have the data. I'm saying, you know, we've got X number of people in X roles and why don't we? So it's a really it's been a really powerful tool as a way of people then witnessing what it's like to be in this organization. It's based on real stories of real people. But really shifted the dial in terms of having, the basis for dialog around what it means, because it isn't necessarily the big things that we need to do, but it's just the day to day interactions that we have with individuals and the human dignity. It's as simple as that. It's just it's absolutely it's. Dr Tessy Ojo: It's interesting you said that because when I do, when I have the opportunity to do lots of talks with corporates, I don't even I don't talk about inclusion. I talk about belonging because belonging is something we all want, right? We all feel. We want to feel seen. I don't want a sense of belonging. I don't want to. I don't want to be a number. I say, oh, with 35% of our staff are black. Gray. How do they feel, though? Jharrone Martis: Do they feel like they belong? Dr Tessy Ojo: Do they feel that they belong? And when you come to a conversation, when you come into a conversation from a place of belonging, every single person is relatable because you want to feel like you belong. I want to, and then let's begin to look at this, because that comes back to how I feel. What's my everyday day to day is. And when I begin to, when I begin to explain to people, tell me what they feel like when you are at home. And everyone tells you, you know, when you can take off your shoes and nobody touches you, you can have any food. I know what is, oh that smells funny. And it's those nuances and, and we begin to bring it back into the workplace. Jharrone Martis: Right. I built a culture to. Absolutely. Yes ladies as we close, I want to ask you both for one key takeaway. You want listeners to remember about the power of authentic representation and they and the role they can play in creating it. Dr Zandi? Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Yeah, I think it's kind of what I would I, was saying just at the end of the last question, which is really about it doesn't have to be about the big gestures. It's about the small everyday decisions that we make because we've got opportunities to include or exclude, and that, you know, everyone should take responsibility for the other person. Jharrone Martis: Dr Tessy. Dr Tessy Ojo: I would say that it's a privilege to not have to carry the baggage of constantly wanting to retell, tell your story. And if you have if you have that privilege, I need you to understand that not everyone has that use, that every privilege that you have sometimes comes at my expense. Think about it. Use that privilege. Be. I hate the word. I don't really like the word ally because ally sometimes says I choose you to ally with for you, to with you. Whereas I want people to be just be a champion. Understand that this is about humanity. Understand that when I can walk through the shop, when you can walk through the shop and no one follows you, when you see a young black boy being followed in the shop, ask the shop assistant, why are you following him? So every privilege that you enjoy, I want you to be aware, conscious that it's does everybody else enjoy that. And when you see that some things happen to someone that doesn't happen to you, you immediately ask, step and don't make an assumption that they must be a he must be a thief because that's what you assume, right? You see the black boy being followed and you think, oh, he's probably still in there before. I promise you, he hasn't. Jharrone Martis: So then, with everything you've said, then how do we stay hopeful and committed to progress? Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Yeah. I mean, I'm always I'm always maybe bit too optimistic. I'm mean, my parents were political activists. They fought for the liberation of their country. I am one generation away from extreme poverty. So I'm very hopeful. Which country? Zimbabwe and probably. Yeah. So I'm very hopeful. I, you know, I know this is a marathon and is not a sprint. So I just try to keep that that positive attitude. There's Maya Angelou has a, poem around, our grandmothers. And one line is there is something about I am one of 10,000. They are our ancestors. There are so many people who came before us and we stand on their shoulders. So we. I have to be only, but positive. Yeah. Dr Tessy Ojo: I have two things. Keep me hopeful. I have a privilege of working with young people. And when I see those lives change, when I see when I stepped into that school yesterday and I could speak to over 200 students, speak to them to say, look, I'm a chief executive. You know, I speak to them and some of the girls come up say, we've never met a female boss. We've met. You know, I know that I that I've left an impact in their lives. The other thing that I hold on to very much is the starfish story and the starfish stories. A story of a young man and his son walking down the beach. And they saw so many the, the, the waves had or the sea had washed up. The starfish is out of the sea. And so there were lots of them on the beach. And this boy was perplexed by the complexity of this fish and was like, how are we going to save all of this? And his dad says, let's just try one at a time. Let's just try one at a time. Let's put one at a time back. And hopefully if we put one back, even if the others don't survive, that one would reproduce and have many more. And so every day I ask myself, did I touch a life today? Did I was I, did I give another child the hope? Or if not, not even the child, another woman, another person, human? Did I even change? Hopefully one of your listeners who understands their role in shifting the dial. That gives me hope. Jharrone Martis: One human at a time, one. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: Woman at the same. Jharrone Martis: Time. I will keep the hope going. Dr Zandi Ndlovu: 100%. Jharrone Martis: Thank you so much Doctor Tessy and Doctor Zandi for your invaluable insights today. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. Representation matters because it shapes the world we live in. Until next time, let's keep breaking barriers.