Empowerment through education: building pathways to success

Jharrone Martis: Welcome back to The Ripple Conversations, the podcast where we explore how individual actions create waves of change. I'm your host, Jharrone Martis, and today we're tackling one of the most critical topics education, specifically the educational challenges faced by underrepresented groups like Black and Latinx communities and the innovative programs that are building pathways to success. Education is the foundation of opportunity, and yet systematic barriers continue to hold back so many talented young people. I'm excited to welcome our guest, Leila Thomas. She is the CEO and founder of Urban Synergy, an award winning social mobility charity established in 2007, and Luke Manning. He is the head of the LSEG Foundation and leads Community Investment Program. Thank you both for joining us today. Leila Thomas: Thanks for having us. Jharrone Martis: Thank you. Yes. So how about if we start painting a picture of the current landscape? What do you see as the most pressing educational challenges facing Black and Latinx communities? Leila Thomas: Going you go, Leila. Leila Thomas: Well, there's lots of changes happening now for, you know, the community, you know, for underrepresented groups, in particularly working in schools. You know, when it comes to schools that might be underfunded, how do the young people in those schools access the opportunities so they can reach their full potential, really? And also there's other challenges as well. Leila Thomas: So, you know, there's conversations around DNA, and emerging technology as well with AI. You know, how do how do we get opportunities to all young people so they can develop those essential skills, reach their full potential? And, yeah, I think that's really some of the challenges that we are really having. And what can we do together to make sure that young people, young people have all the support that they need to transition? Luke Manning : Yeah, absolutely. And when I, when I talk to the, the, the charities that we support, the charities within our portfolio and I did before, before this, this podcast to just to get some idea of some of those themes and some of the big ones that kept coming out from regardless, really, whether that was black or Latino, X or LGBT or whatever, the underserved community, the first one that came up. Luke Manning : Teacher perception, which I thought was fascinating because, you know, I don't know. I don't know how a teacher perceives kids differently based on their race or whatever it is. But that came up number one, loud and clear. The second one was still just inherent racism. And I'd love to get your take on that, because I think to myself, is that is that still a thing where you, you sat in a classroom and if you had, you know, a third white, third black, a third Latinx to that the white kids get, you know, do they get some kind of preferential treatment? Luke Manning : How? I don't know I don't know how that happened. So it was so it was teacher perception. It was racism. And the one that really came up every single time lack of role models. Jharrone Martis: Lack of role models. And that's like, of course, critical for students to see that the possibility of what could be, what do you think are less obvious challenges that go unnoticed to the broader public? Leila Thomas: Maybe it's biases. You know, if sometimes we hear about, you know, microaggressions and biases. Yeah. Maybe get, not recognized or appreciated. So you might have personality biases, but you can also have cultural biases as well. Yeah. In certain cultures it might be, you know, not looking in, you know, don't look people in the eye. Sometimes some cultures are louder, may be quieter. Luke Manning : Language like accent. Leila Thomas: That's right. Luke Manning : Accent bias all the time. Leila Thomas: That's right. So you mentioned, racism, but yeah, you could have accents and I could hear all the isms. Yeah. You know, which is which is quite interesting. So some, you know, some people how do you put processes in place to kind of make sure those biases aren't creeping in to how young people or people are treated? You know, so that's something that we find that's really important. So it's providing maybe the role models can break that down sometimes. So then when they see, you know, CEOs from different backgrounds, they're like, oh, you know, the teachers or just people in general. We all have stereotypes is what we see on the TV every day. So you need to be very aware of that. But how do you reset and rethink, you know, what is talent. You know, how do you how do you maybe understand how you have how can I say this? But I mentioned about the cultural and the personality types, but there's also the environment, maybe to understand and empathize, maybe the environment where the young people come from or the schools where they've come from, the challenges, what they have. So you might see a great student, but, you know, how are they supported to get those opportunities to become that a great student? And sometimes if you provide opportunities to other people, you might unleash another, you know, set of talent because they've had those opportunities to develop the skill set. So it's interesting when you mentioned about education because you think maybe a an academic education, but there's also immersive experiences which are really important for education as well. So experiences of the workplace. So if you've got mommy and daddy that work in the corporate world, if you are these senior leaders, you know they get that education from birth. You know, they start coming into the workplace at Christmas, you know, to see, you know, walk through the doors, have the hot chocolate in the, you know, in the workplace. But how about all those other young people that don't have mommy and daddy that work in those different places? And that's why the work that, you know, urban synergy does, you know, working with Luke and it's been a support road, is providing those opportunities to those young people so they can see and have those immersive experiences. And they might be good at maths, but actually when they go to work in a department, I think maybe, maybe not here, but actually they might like it here. So they get that information so they can make those informed decisions as a transitioning into, into their careers. Luke Manning : And that's what you guys do so well. And you guys being urban synergy. Right. Because it's the obvious stuff though. You know kids sort of just basically they'll look up it Canary Wharf or you know, here in Paternoster Square and they basically say, I don't really belong there. You know, I can never see myself there. And you give them that first step into PC of course you can do this. Yes. And even then when you get into the business, then it's almost like, okay, I mean, now, but I can never get there. I can never get to that senior position. So it's so that that sort of representation role model is so important. But to another layer to your question, which was sort of what are those hidden bits? It all comes back to different strands of mental health. And I was looking at like the racism bit we're talking about. What does that actually mean in terms of yourself? How does it make you feel? And a lot of the time it will be the things like you're you're feeling isolated or you're feeling like you're not part of it because you're you're not represented. So there's a there's a big study on, universities in the UK and the US. There's there's very few black female lecturers, for example. Leila Thomas: Yeah. Luke Manning : So if you're sat there and the lectures are mainly white or they don't look like you or act like you, you are then reading a syllabus, a curriculum, and the authors are often mainly white. So you're not just not getting that representation. So you do feel isolated, you don't feel part of the gang. And of course that's going to impact how you feel. And then there's other aspects to that as well, where, you know, you get family pressure if you come from a family really like the like you're saying, where Mommy and daddy, maybe they aren't the wealthiest, maybe they haven't got the corporate jobs and they've had to really, really sacrifice to make sure you can go to university or school, but then you're going to get the pressure. You've got to do well, you've got to do well. And then last bit, just before I could go back to you, Leila, but I saw this other bit of research and, and these aren't the exact numbers, but they give you an idea. University kids in, in the US and I think it was third or fourth year, but the third or fourth year, it said that black kids are twice as likely to have a dependent adult, dependent in their family, that they're looking after their a carer or friends. They're also twice as likely to have their own kids so that they care for those. And then they're also twice as likely to have a full time job as well as doing education. So if you've got all of that layered on, you've got a job, you're looking after kids, you're looking after family. And then those other bits we were talking about in terms of you don't even feel particularly part of it. You might not then even have the time to be part of the gang, to go and socialize. It's no wonder that the dropout rates are higher. Yeah. So when you look at that kind of stuff, it's it's quite an interesting picture. It's not to do with skills is often to do with so much to do with confidence. Leila Thomas: That's right. Yeah. Confidence. It's really interesting that word confidence. Yeah. Because if you're not confident you can't win a race. That's why I'm a big fan of, you know, the work that the charity does because we're like a positive network of opportunities, a positive network of positive people, a positive network of people who encourage other people. Mentoring is a really interesting thing. Leila Thomas: If you're not aware or something, you just don't know how. Somebody said to me at work. Leila, what else can somebody want in life? Somebody who's done it before showing you the way that, it's very true, you know? So. But this mental health, we've got a young man. He said to me very recently, actually, he called me and he said, you folks have no idea how much you've changed my life. Luke Manning : Yeah. Leila Thomas: I thought about it. I kind of understand what he means. And it's around, you know, he's on his entrepreneurial, you know, set up his own business. And, you know, during lockdown, if he's found it really difficult, he's found it really difficult. But it's the support we gave him in the beginning, that foundation support that gave him those skills, that confidence that shown him his potential, showed him those role models that he's used in life. So when he said he's been at home, he's like, if it's just gone really bad. But then he remembered, no, I'm the person that had a standing ovation in House of Commons we've ever seen AG you know, when he was like 15 years old, he goes, I can do this. He's been in situations where he's worked with top actors. Leila Thomas: I won't mention the names of who it is, who they are. Luke Manning : You know, just got so many famous friends is ridiculous. Leila Thomas: I know, but that's a nice thing. That's what I think. That's what I brought to the table. Luke Manning : Confidence. And I haven't really ever thought of. Leila Thomas: It, but you gave me confidence. You'll get the opportunity, so it's a good for you. Luke Manning : Do I think about it when you come in to. So what happens is, is leader will bring, you know, a range of kids in to experience it as in able to experience it and we get with them. We get mentors, you know, speed mentoring, interview practice. A lot of that is is really how do people conduct themselves. They can sit you can see them. They're watching. How do you conduct yourself? How do you start the conversations? What do you talk about? What's the etiquette? You all are that's up there. You can't teach that. But when they're here, they're often at the beginning. They come in and they stood there, they've got their hands in their pockets, and they sort of shuffle up and but you'll just infuse them with, hey, this is Luke, this is what he does. And you just have a natural confidence. But whether it's a mentor or a or a buddy or whatever, and this doesn't just apply to to your kids. Applies to any kids, applies to my kids. When you start work and you sort of buddy up with someone, and especially if you buddy up with someone in their late 40s, 50, something like that, they'll have a natural confidence. They'll have a life confidence. They've been there, they've done that. And the kids just you can see them settle down. Yeah. And they're watching. They'll take it all on. And I say to my kids the whole time, of course I want them to have skills. And of course I want to develop that. But I, I truly believe that's, you know, ten, 20% of what really happens, which is how do you how do you rub along with other people. Yeah. And you can only learn that by by seeing it and doing it. And so I'm a, I'm a really I'm a broken record when it comes to mentoring bodying real life experience, work experience. I love it when you bring your kids in. I genuinely love it because and you have these fascinating discussions with them and it is nothing to do with race. It's nothing to do with barriers. It's just some kids that come in and the ones that come in, they want to do something and you can just you can just feel their energy. And I think you thrive off their reaction. Leila Thomas: I like the fact that you said it's nothing to do with race. It's nothing to do because what we're doing is you're non-judgmental. Luke Manning : Yeah. Leila Thomas: Well, and one of the things, you know, as I've been growing up or coming into the workplace or experiences that we all have, and it is experience that we have that make us who we are. I've walked into rooms, we have all these men. So working, working in technology, managing a team of men, and they've looked at me like, are you in the wrong room? Actually didn't like me. They actually asked me that. Well, they assume I'm not the I'm not the manager. They've gone to somebody else. So I've had a lot of experiences like that. So when I walk into the room, you know, what do you see first. Do you see my race or do you see my gender? And actually, what I've noticed is when I walk into a room, I have a load of post-it notes probably stuck on me, like, oh, this isn't the person that works in it. This isn't the person who can do this because they're stereotypes and we have them. Luke Manning : Do you feel that then? Leila Thomas: Oh. Straight away I've been I have to kind of earn my way out of that and say, oh, kind of like validation to say, I am this. I oh yeah, I didn't, I didn't know you worked. So why are you assuming. I'm sorry? I'm going to say, you know, I've had it. Yeah. In my, in my team that the tool six for white men is the manager. So they've gone straight over to him and my team have said what's wrong. Luke Manning : With two, six and one? Leila Thomas: Nothing. But they dismissed me. They shouldn't dismiss anything, but they were insulting. Luke Manning : I mean, I always I generally I wear this you toy. Yeah. Three piece suit and all the rest. Leila Thomas: Well that's it but yes because you want to be maybe seen. But first impressions count. But I can't hide that. You see I can't hide, I can't hide how I look. Whereas, And that's a race thing. So you can't hide your race, but you can hide your, maybe your faith or you can hide, you can hide things. But then, yes. Luke Manning : We. Leila Thomas: From race, we can't hide. So it's just understanding that and, people understanding that, you know. Yeah. Jharrone Martis: You both have provided, very critical examples of how important it is to have the mentorship and students come in and see and interact, one on one with people at work. When we think, about quality education, how important it is to really break these negative cycles of inequality, what strategies do you believe are the most effective to make to making sure that Black and Latin students have access to high quality learning opportunities? Luke Manning : I think it's a hard question, really, because, you know, some of this will come down to sort of demographics, demographics when it comes to wealth, you know, is there it might be just some families simply don't have the funds to, to, to make sure their kids can get through to school. So clearly and you know, and I look at again, the programs of partners, the foundation and what they generally do is, is all they're trying to do is make sure that the access to the education is, is as equitable as possible. You know, how do we make sure that as many kids from as many families, from whatever shade of underserved communities can get in there? So I think the first bit is just to try and make it as accessible as possible. But then once you're in that education, back to that representation point, to make it as accessible in terms of being able to you've got your seat, you're in the lecture hall or in the school, but, you know, then you want to make sure that you break down the barriers so that you don't have any disadvantage. And so and again, that can take so many different forms. So I was talking about so, you know you might be have a full time job and you have and you have caring responsibilities then your currency is flexibility. How do you make that courses flexible. So people like that can can access it. Other times it might simply be the teacher perception thing. And so there are charities out there that actually then teach the teachers how to not have those microaggressions, how to have to look at it differently, not have any biases. And then you start to eradicate the racism. So it's it's a hard question other than all you want to do is make sure you want to make sure it's a level playing field and it just comes back to schools. It doesn't come back to anything else I agree. Leila Thomas: Yeah. Jharrone Martis: And in terms of going back to the mentorship, can you share an example, a story, maybe of your own experience, of a transformative impact mentorship had either on a student or yourself. Leila Thomas: I can I can give to actually look at both. So when you're talking about education, we worked with a, an initiative is called the London Challenge Program. For young people that were at risk of exclusion. It was in an area called Deptford in southeast London. At the time, the borrower had, you know, highest exclusion levels, of all the London boroughs. But there's a group of boys that we worked with. And, actually, I think a lot of the times is supporting everyone to support the young person. But the young person's at the heart of what we do. So when we did supply those, those mentor, those mentorship, those opportunities, it showed those boys where they could really be. Because actually what the boys actually said, there's there's there's no one out there that look like us that are doing well and that that's why the teachers actually reached out to urban synergy at that time. Now those young boys are now working in the city. One of those young boys that I spoke about who is very successful in them, his own business, but also one of those young boys, hosted a fireside chat at the London Stock Exchange. And when he said he's going to be doing that, I called him and I said, are you okay? Name's Kofi. I said, are you do you need any help? You know Kofi. He's like, oh, come on, Leila, you folks trained me. And I thought, oh, he's King Charles, you know, he's he's been to, you know, Downing Street. He's been in to LSG, you know, to the market open. Yeah. So from the from us, from you know, he learned from us. Okay. So, that shows you how when you are providing, providing that nurturing environment for young people to grow, where they can actually turn up and are they benefits themselves, their community, their family, and actually the, the workplace. That's an example. Yeah. Fit for me, myself, the power of mentorship. Who would have known I was working in technology, really. But I think the power of mentorship is sometimes people can see the talent in you and I think people saw that talent in me, which I kind of downplayed, I think. But the mentorship was like, you can do this. You're good at that. You, like me. Luke Manning : Keep pushing you on. Leila Thomas: Yeah, keep pushing you on that give you that confidence. Luke Manning : Back, to come. Leila Thomas: Back to confidence. And actually, because some people may be really confident they doesn't mean they can do their job, but they're really good at selling themselves, actually putting themselves forward, you know, upselling themselves. That's the power of mentorship. And, you know, the opportunities I got through, like LSEG has led me to, you know, to support, you know, who'd have thought that I was supporting 33,000 young people and got a strategy to help 50,000? Leila Thomas: Yeah. That's amazing. Jharrone Martis: That's a lot of students to do on your own. Leila Thomas: So it's a team. Jharrone Martis: So exactly what would you tell someone who wants to do, mentorship but doesn't know how to start or what to do? Leila Thomas: Contact me and you have to do it. I mean, it develops. It's a two way street. It benefits two ways, actually, I would say. Jharrone Martis: But where should they start? Luke Manning : You just do it. Yeah, it really is. It's as simple as I mean, it's as simple as just getting up and and just doing it. I get it because you sort of think, well, who who would want to be mentored by me? That's the first thing. This is the bizarre thing is the more senior people get, they often still have that kind of, imposter syndrome. And I think, well, you know, who would want who would want to be mentored by me? So say me, for example, Leila brings in some kids, and these are these are some pretty cool kids. And I think, who the hell is going to be want want to be mentored by middle aged white guy? That this guy. Leila Thomas: You're interesting. Luke Manning : Not so. So some of it comes in the confidence in yourself. I had a mentor when I was. I had one mentor who stood head and shoulders above the rest, and I used to be a journalist. That's what I used to used to be. And he was that. He was the guy that sort of he was my transition from journalism to business, which was comms. And he he worked with businesses, on sort of leadership, building cultures, all this stuff that, you know, obviously I knew about leadership culture and I didn't really know anything about it. I was I was a journalist and I became his right hand person. And he used to go into these meetings with CEOs of, you know, big financial firms, all the sort of ones that are on the Footsie 100 listed in the exchange, whatever they might be. And he'd walk into a room with the most senior people in multi billion pound businesses and he would instantly control the room. Yeah. Instantly control it. And I and I'd sit there and I'd just and I would just watch. That's what I said about watching. How does he how does he conduct himself. Like I said what does he do. And it's almost like this. He had this sort of magic that he he could bottle and he had everything you just but he had confidence in spite. Charismatic. He could speak if he spoke. Everyone listen. Everyone turns around. It's a skill. It's a skill. And then. But then you sort of then you have a dip because then you think, well, he's amazing at that. I'm never going to be like that. And I remember saying to him once, you know, how do I get to be like you? And he sort of said, you don't want to be like me. You've got to be yourself. You've got to be authentic. But but if I hadn't spent time with him and I spent about five years with him, in the end I would never have known the art of what's possible. Where can you get to? How do you how do you build the relationships? How do you and I still don't do as well as him, nowhere near as well as good as him. But that's that's you're never going to be as good as your mentor. Not really. Then the other way round to your point. And there's just one that stood out from last year where someone came and worked in my team. And now now she's gone on and she's doing brilliantly well. But we had our last conversation. It was this virtual she was based in a different country. And she said something that I just thought, oh, that's that's great. That was just like, yes. And she just said, you know, there's always a person in your life that sort of looks at your potential, and they're the person that basically turns that into reality. And so I felt in some way I passed on some of the stuff I learned from from my mentor and did it the other way. So I it and mentorship comes in all shapes and sizes. It doesn't have to be you sit down. You meet every month. But the I ended up ghostwriting this guy's autobiography, and he was speaking about his mentors, and he had gone when he was younger, and he used to say in every month he'd meet up with his mentor and he buy a sandwich. Yeah. And he'd sit there and it was the thing, that's it. Leila Thomas: That's your time. Luke Manning : To talk about it, and that's your time. But and so it can be in all kinds of different ways when your time is how you do it, if. Leila Thomas: It can work for captains of industry. Luke Manning : Exactly. Leila Thomas: All of them have mentors and coaches and serve. Yeah. You know, all of these things. And that's what they don't teach you in school. Luke Manning : Yeah. And you said, where should they go? Leila said, come and speak to her equally. Come and speak to me. We have 135 charities. We support the foundation and. Leila Thomas: No, excuse me, sir, there's. Luke Manning : No excuse. Leila Thomas: They just. Luke Manning : Do it. We can. We can either find you people that want to be mentor within those charities or the beneficiaries of those charities. We're looking to impact a million people by 2030. Last year, we impacted 250,000 people. Right. So we've got a few opportunities of mentors. Leila Thomas: Want to just do it? We say, right, just what the ripple effect. Luke Manning : Is, the ripple effect. Jharrone Martis: The one action people can start taking. Luke Manning : Exactly. Jharrone Martis: Start doing mentorship, talking to either one of you, what final thoughts or advice would you give educators, community leaders, or even students, about building pathways to success? Luke Manning : I was at Round Table Breakfast, yesterday, and one of the people they kept using expression, he was a CEO of a big firm. And he said when the when young people come in and they join our businesses, we just always looking for the gold. We're always looking for the gold. And he said some of them can come in a bit rough edged. Some of them need a bit of polishing, but we're always looking for the gold. And so for educators, I think it's always look for the gold. You know, there will be kids that are problematic, but they're going to have some skills. There will be kids that are shy. That's just their personality. So help bring them out. Help be the teacher that gives them the time, gives them the space, gives them the the opportunity to be themselves. For the people doing it, it's so this guy I was talking about, I don't know why, and it's really simple advice and but he always used to say, back yourself, right. And I used to I used to take real comfort in that. I used to think, yeah, back yourself. And I don't think I've ever come across better advice really than that. Just back yourself, you know, go for it. And it's it all sounds cliche, but the reason it's a cliche is because it's true. Find those mentors. Find the people who will like you sometimes actually find the people who are not like you. The mentor I'm talking about, but otherwise black, right? So I didn't even go out and look for a oh, he looks like me. He was just the most charismatic bloke I knew, and I just thought, I want a bit of that. So for the. Yeah, for the educators. Just always look for everyone has some gold in them. So look for that. And then for the people back yourself. That would be my my advice. Jharrone Martis: Beautiful advice. What about you? Leila Thomas: Like I think for the educators to understand and empathize, I think that's really important. Luke Manning : Empathy is a really good word. We haven't even covered. We haven't done that. Leila Thomas: Are you do you have to understand? Sometimes it's that experience that you have that make you have empathy. So maybe they do need to go out there. Yeah. But understanding and empathize. And I believe like I said, every young person or everyone has a talent and we're all individuals. You know, we're all individuals. So be kind. If you can lift someone up, then you should do and open that door. You never know where that talent is going to come in from. You don't you don't want to, don't pigeonhole just, you know, provide opportunities, and provide a positive environment for, you know, that that young person to go. But understanding and empathy is really important. Luke Manning : See, I needed a better answer. She was she always does ask me something else. I can do better than. Jharrone Martis: Well. What is one action you would like, listeners, to take? Luke Manning : I you know, actually, when I heard Leila out there, you know, I that sort of open minded tolerance. That's what I'm try to tell my kids the whole time is just sort of, I, I struggle with that a bit in the world at the moment. That sort of just says, just be open minded, just be tolerant. I love the idea of help people out and excuse me and it will come back your way as well. I think tolerance, I'm going to go with that. I think just just be tolerant and I'm mentoring is part of that because you're sort of you're saying, I'm going to give my time to someone who want some advice and you've got to. And in order to do that, you know, people can be busy. They don't want to do stuff, they don't want to move on. So when I talk about tolerance, it's not just tolerating people. It's sort of it's just it's just it's just putting in what you want to get out. I just want to see a bit more of that in the world, I think. Jharrone Martis: I think it's key. What everything happening, how fast the world is changing nowadays. We talk about being open minded. Empathy. Yeah. Mentorship. I think we've discussed really good topics for today. Any final thoughts? Leila Thomas: Yeah. For me, the one takeaway is just do it. Yeah. Be a mentor. Get a mentor. Yeah, it's it's positive growth. Positive development. That's the main takeaways and these conversations about the ripple, you see opportunity, you know growth unleashed social. We're in a global business market. It's really important that we you know full potential for everybody. Leila Thomas: So be a mentor and get them into I would say yeah. Luke Manning : Definitely. Leila Thomas: Just do it. Luke Manning : Open minded I think that's. Leila Thomas: I know a non-judgmental. Jharrone Martis: Yeah, exactly. Empathy. They all go hand in hand together is. Luke Manning : One of the best human traits. They're all the best human traits. And guess what? They're the things that create the most positive impact in the world. You know, rather than being divisive or being binary, you know, you're black, you're white, okay. It's just like sort of, you know, just it's you got to understand that Leila's gone on a different path, too. Luke Manning : I've gone on. We've all had different challenges and all the rest of it. But that open mindedness to be willing to help and just listen because you've got to listen to in anything in life, you know, in fact, I would urge everyone to look at the almost like the two extremes of any argument. You know, why? Why the people that are really thinking one thing at that end of the argument, and why the people thinking the other, and the truth, of course, will always lie in the middle. Luke Manning : And so but you got to you got to listen to both of those things, and then you bring out this other stuff. Leila Thomas: Can I say something as well? Nice. Maybe not in enough, but it's that reset. Rethink is really important. So there's some, processes or techniques that sometimes people do. So, you know, we you can be the outsider in the room or sometimes you feel like you're not listening, being listened to or given the chance. So some leaders, they'll let the other, people in their team speak first. Luke Manning : Yeah. Leila Thomas: Because sometimes, you know, they can dominate, you know, dominate. But it's great for you to sometimes stand back and give other people the, the tones, the opportunity and to bring the best out. It's just something that's a way to say so reset and rethink. Jharrone Martis: Something that's just this little is that right? It can empower somebody and kind of do somebody. Luke Manning : Yeah. So you've got this going. Jharrone Martis: Now and give them the confidence. Leila Thomas: Give them the. Jharrone Martis: Confidence that they need and absolutely step up and feel better about themselves and progress. Luke Manning : Yeah. And when you're saying about that inclusivity, because that's what you're really saying is to include everyone in the room, make sure the voices are heard. I worked, you know, a number of years ago with, with a guy who set up, an improv troupe and, and those the improv communication skills are so valuable, not just in business, but in life. And there's the one simple one that he gave me, again, that sticks is always those little bits of sticks is when you're having a discussion, you'll often say, people just want to get their point across. Yeah, they're waiting for you to stop talking later so I can talk, right? Because yes, yes, yes, yes. But here's what really, when the real power comes, when you listen to that and you build on it. So Leila, I'd say, you know, I think it's reset and I don't agree with that. I do agree with that. By the way, if I say I didn't, I go, yes, yes, but the thing you're missing the alarm. But the key is yes. And you go, yes. Reset is great. And what that allows to do is this is a really inclusive way, you know, bringing people on board with you because you're effectively what you do is improv is you take from the other person, then you build in it. So yes and instead of yes, but yeah, you try it. Try and conversations. Yes. Yeah. I you use it like okay. Leila Thomas: Okay. Luke Manning : Yeah. Yeah. So it's a but again it comes back to all those things we're talking about that sort of open mindedness and inclusivity and representation. Leila Thomas: Being a mentor as well. What people don't see is how it develops your personal skills as well. So you spent your own skills. So communication skills, you know, listening. Yeah. Influential skills. It's almost like developing leadership skills, you know? Absolutely. Because we're all leaders I suppose, in some way. But, you know, you develop those skills as well. So I just want to add that in there because sometimes people think, oh, it's all one direction. It's actually not. I've learned a lot myself from the work that I do. Yeah. So yes. Luke Manning : Yes. Leila Thomas: And and yes. Luke Manning : That is exactly the same for volunteering because when we everyone else it gets two days of volunteering and a lot of the. Well we do loads with you. How many hundreds last year a lot. Yeah, lots and lots of people. So we had about 7000 people in 2024 volunteering. And there's so many benefits to that, so many benefits in terms of is this the type of coach, for example, that we want to work at FCA? Yes. Is are you helping the community? Yes. Are you helping charities and in some cases with your expertise? Yes. In other cases it's more we're going to go and, you know, clear, clearer forest or something. That's fine as well. But to your point, it's also for you because you're suddenly using your skills in an entirely different environment, and how you build those and hone those, because you can become quite one dimensional in any business. You get sucked into the day to day. You know, you've got deadlines, there's a way of working, there's a way of thinking, there's a hierarchy you have to follow all important. And that's how corporates run. But just stepping out of that into a different environment and you, you'll get up. Sometimes you just get re-energized. You reset. Leila Thomas: And. Luke Manning : And you develop the skills. So it's it's a it's a virtuous circle. Yeah. That you need to tap into rather than getting tapped into that for that vicious circle, which is what like I'm saying, without wanting to get too deep about stuff, that you're just seeing so many arguments and so many things happening in the wider world that so influence your own, your own world, your own immediate vicinity. And that's. Jharrone Martis: And that can cause a ripple. Leila Thomas: Effect, the ripple effect. Jharrone Martis: So the ripple effect. Thank you so much, Leila. And look for your wisdom and all your beautiful experiences and sharing those with us today. Education is the starting point for so many ripples of change. When we invest in young people, we invest in a brighter future for all of us. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Until next time, keep making ripples.