Episode Transcript
Jharonne Martis : Welcome to the inaugural episode of Ripple Conversations, a podcast that's not your typical diversity and inclusion podcast. I'm Jharonne Martis, and I'm thrilled to embark on this journey with you. Ripple conversations was born out of the illuminate program, composed of Black and Latinx employees and their allies. This group is committed to fostering an environment where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued. And each episode will dive into a variety of topics that matter to our community. We'll hear personal stories of triumph and challenges, explore the impact of diversity in the workplace and discuss actionable strategies to promote inclusion. Our goal is to create a space where conversations about race, identity, and culture are open, honest, and most importantly, transformative. Today, I want to introduce you to some of the talented individuals that are here to share their stories. We will focus on a hot topic we uncovered, which is a sense of belonging. Welcome, Balbir Bakhshi. He is the Group Chief Risk Officer at LSEG. And you might already recognise him from other diversity programs here at LSEG, as he is also the co-sponsor for the LSEG Pride Network and also the illuminate program. Welcome for being here. And then Nick Steele, he is the Head of Rates Risk at LCH, also based in London. And Nick joined the Illuminate program as an ally. He's always been an advocate for equality and fairness. But this is the first time that actually Nick joined a diverse city and inclusion program. And he has the opportunity to amplify the stories of underrepresented communities. And then we have Carol Campagne. She is the Managing Director of the Diversity Practice and a pioneer in diversity and inclusion initiatives. During the illuminate program, Carol took us under her wing. She awakened our potential and equipped us with the essential tools to tackle the wicked problem. When I first joined the illuminate program, I had no idea what I was embarking on, especially because it took place in the workplace. There were a lot of lessons, eye opening lessons, but one that profoundly impacted me was the danger of the single story. And mainly because it leads to the formation of stereotypes. This lesson for me feels particularly relevant because it really pushes us to focus on our own biases and our blind spots, and it couldn't be more relevant given all the unrest we've seen in the world since 2020. Our world is changing rapidly in front of us. And it underlines the importance of seeking multiple perspectives, different viewpoints, engaging with people of different backgrounds, truly listening to their stories, and challenging, preconceived notions and stereotypes. It is empirical that we are receptive and mindful of really avoiding rapid judgement based solely on a single narrative, and instead that we actively seek and share diverse narratives and stories in order to come back and help reduce the nature of a single story. Having said that, Nick, you join me into the illuminate program. You joined as an ally and we sat through Get Together to many of the lessons that we learned, you know, that were initiated by Carol and Paul. You are committed to fostering change and enhancing equity and inclusion at Al SAC. Can you please share with us what were some of the main things that you learned during the illuminate program?
Nick Steele: Well, thanks for the, the introduction. I learned so many things and a bit like yourself. There were so many that I. That I wasn't expecting. During the during the period, I thought I knew a bit about the subject. I've always been somebody who's championed equality, tried to noticed where things weren't fair. However, the main thing I've learned throughout the, the program is that I need to challenge my own thinking. I need to challenge, myself. There is so much going on, externally in the world that we are not privy to the internal conversations and perspectives of others, but also, I think the decisions that we are making every day subconsciously and how they might affect, others in the some of the specifics that I, that I took away was that the problem is more real and happening right now here everywhere. I think that the evidence is entirely overwhelming. If you choose to view it objectively, we see data coming out from multiple places. But the real step forward for this program was the very personal aspect. As we met, people discussed amongst ourselves and actually often listened to very powerful but upsetting personal accounts, of how people had been treated by the world more generally and how, they, for me, became the absolute, the absolute proof.
Jharonne Martis: And so what was the moment for you and the entire program? What was the moment that really, like, turned the switch, you know, like,
Nick Steele: there's, this is something bigger.
Jharonne Martis: Yes.
Nick Steele: I think we were very lucky to be doing lots of practical exercises. And I think this is a whole subject you learn through doing and through sort of personally challenging where you are rather than listening to somebody lecturing you. And one of those was very much around, identity, and stereotypes. And I view that as pivotal to me. If I can just go into a bit of detail. We were tasked with sort of defining what you view as your identity, and to be honest, is something I don't often think about. And I when push thought about some of my character traits and indeed the old flaw but also and then sort of things like the importance of family to my personal life. It was very clear, speaking to the other people, particularly the the Black and Latinx leaders, that the race or gender was, was central to how they immediately identified their identity. This obviously was somewhat of a shock, but pretty obvious I had I spent the time thinking about it as we move then into sort of majority minority sort of dynamics and associated stereotypes. It became clear that as we identified the top three of, like the majority groups that tend to define the world, particularly here in London, where I am, they were, whether you are white, whether you're English speaking or whether you're male, and I don't seem to notice that other big group and broad, diverse, sort of people were with. I was the only person that fit that criteria. At which point when everybody sort of turns to you and says, well, we're trying to fix this and you've possibly got the most influence, what are you going to do about it? And to suddenly feel part of that as a minority? Very briefly. And that scenario felt an enormous pressure. I became almost quite defensive. But I believe in equality. But it became clear that what I was doing was not was not enough, that I needed to get off the sidelines to actually make a more active change. And that's when I realised that this is going to be down to me and people like me.
Jharonne Martis: So then what advice would you give others that would like to be, you know, an ally, a better ally?
Nick Steele: Well, one very obvious one would be to come and talk to us, talk to those who have been lucky enough to be on this amazing illuminate journey that also because, been sponsoring through the through the SSC, if you can and if you feel confident is to take the plunge and talk to some Black and Latinx people about the topic, which, which might be difficult, it's hard to use the right language. People like myself have been scared of getting it wrong, and that's a barrier we need to dilute. Possibly in an easy way. It can be just to say, like, I'm sorry, I'm going to get some of the language wrong. I'm not an expert in this, but can we talk about this because I think it matters.
Jharonne Martis: The disclaimer upfront ?
Nick Steele: Disclaimer up front because, I mean, I make more mistakes than anyone else I know. But if you admit you're going to do it, people are much more, accepting. And I think if you can do that, then we can start the conversations. Without the conversations, I don't think we'll get the change.
Jharonne Martis: Thank you. Nick Balbir , you've been committed to creating an even more inclusive workplace by being the exco sponsor of the Illuminate programme, and also the SAG Pride network. You've been an advocate for people to bring their authentic self to work. Why has LSEG invested in the Illuminate programme?
Balbir Bakhshi: I'd probably answer that two ways. So about three and a half years LSEG bought Refinitiv a larger organisation than LSEG was back then. So sort of a significantly larger organisation. So you, you were bringing together two different companies with different cultures at different states of maturity on a range of different topics and the aspiration for LSEG was big then and it's big now. So we want to be one of the world's best companies. And I think we know that to be one of the world's best companies, we need to get this topic right. And so from the outset and I joined, that was around the time I joined. There was a very real commitment from the executive team to focus on this and to get this right. And at that time, knowing that we've got some way to travel. But I think that the deeper thought process is very much what Nick was talking about. So the importance of allies and sponsorship really important. And you mentioned, me being the executive sponsor for LSEG Pride, and they've been, that sponsor for three years. And one of the key journeys we'll say Nick was talking about is the learning journey that I've been on. So you could call me a diverse individual, but I'd be in a very different group when it comes to LGBTQIA. Like I'd be on the other side of that. I'd be on the ally on the sponsorship side. And the more I've leaned in and been willing to have that conversation and admitting with, you know, I might get this wrong, I might ask a dumb question. And historically, I think most people have been quite scared about asking those questions because you don't want to offend, but then you don't have the conversation and then you don't learn, right?
Jharonne Martis: That's the danger.
Balbir Bakhshi: And that's so powerful. Like the conversations I've had and what I've been exposed to has just led me to become a more passionate ally. And and I use the word sponsor because that's how I that's kind of what I want to be. I want to sponsor people. I want to sponsor the whole community. And then not just for pride, but across different elements of of diversity. But, you know, so someone with the demographics that Nick described for himself, an individual like that could be neurodiverse or it could or could have a hidden disability of some other means that you can't see. So they may also be diverse in a way that you can't see. So So I think the more we speak about this, the better. So that's very much coming from the company's perspective and seeing it. And then for me personally, as I had these conversations, and this is literally going back to that learning I've had over the past three and a half years, I realised, okay, so if I go back to my career and how I got to, the progression that I've seen these, there have been some really key people along that journey. And, and then I didn't know at the time that these people were allies and sponsors. They believed in me. They supported me. They took a chance on me. They gave me a step up when I wasn't ready. And that actually goes to the heart of this program and programs like this. That's the intention. That's what we trying to do with these projects.
Jharonne Martis: And matter matters. Yes. So what motivated you personally to prioritise diversity and inclusion within outside?
Balbir Bakhshi: So I mentioned I've been on a journey probably. And till I got to el-Sheikh, I didn't really talk about myself, like I never spoke about myself. So, so this goes to me, you know, being quite a private person, a big period of time in my own history, I sort of, hid, almost like I'm very visibly diverse. But I had my diversity, so I sort of pretended in my mind that I'm the same. I grew up in a very white, middle class, neighbourhood in school, and I was one of two Indian kids in the school. And, and when I was, up until the age of 11 years old, I didn't wear a turban. And then I went to, my secondary school, and I. And my identity changed, and that was a really big deal for me because I was sort of 11 years old, and you kind of then changing, and you're growing a beard, and everyone's looking cool and I'm like, you know, I don't this kind of fluffy, fluffy stuff on my face. I didn't think I look cool. And so I was on the back foot, and say for a long period and even, when I started work, I sort of pretended I was the same as, you know, everyone else around me, typically. And I didn't admit my, diversity certainly didn't embrace it. And so, so I wasn't being my authentic self. And and you spoke about acting. And I think there's an element to us, to all of us that are acting every day and
Jharonne Martis: To fit in.
Balbir Bakhshi: To fit in and that and how much energy you spell. By doing that you only realise later on and saying like, okay. And then you get a bit older, you get a bit wise, and you might get to a certain level where you say, how much do I care about this acting anymore? Like, you know, why am I doing this? And actually, a number of people came to me in my, last job and said, and my daughter that my 23 year old daughter, who's is my life coach, basically, she said to me, very wise I learnt a lot from her. So she said, okay, you should use your position to promote ethnic diversity. And this was when I was in I mean, that was two jobs ago. And I said, I don't think I need to because I look around me, you know, I've worked for organisations that have had a black CEO and an Indian CEO. So, so, so I've seen senior diverse individuals. So it's like, I'm not sure I need to do that. But then as you talk to people. So I mean, I'm speaking at a, an ethnicity event with two other Sikh, men who came up to me. They wear turbans and, and they and I told them about a story when, I first presented to the risk committee at my first job in the late 90s, and I was on I was in London and this was in a video call to Switzerland. And the Swiss chairman, leans over to my colleague in Switzerland while I was presenting and said,: “My, Bablbir speaks really good English,” and, and my, my view and I, like my colleague came back. We had a good laugh about it. My view is great. He knows my name in is he's going to remember me. And, that's good progress. And I told these two other guys and they were like, we would be horrified with that. That's like, that's unacceptable. Not so not progress. But the point to me was my lived experience could be very different to the lived experience of someone who looks exactly like me.
Jharonne Martis: And that's exactly the danger of a single story.
Balbir Bakhshi: Yeah, single story stereotypes. All of these things are the biases that you have, and I might have a a bias towards, you know, my own acceleration at whatever cost, but being maybe ignorant to what's really going on. And part of me probably was ignorant as a, as a mechanism to deal with it. So I tried to not expend too much energy on that topic. But somebody else, maybe more sensitive, maybe a bit more in touch with things and may see things differently.
Jharonne Martis: Absolutely. So in everything you've just described and coming in, what challenges have you encountered in promoting diversity, inclusion from where you were to where you are today and how did you address them?
Balbir Bakhshi: At LSEG
Jharonne Martis: Yes.
Balbir Bakhshi: So I think there's a few things. I think we've made really good progress. So one, you really need a board in an executive team. You can't be you can't have a split vote at the executive level, and then you just end up taking some boxes. So I think you need genuine intent at the executive level. And I think we've been lucky to have that, since I've been here. We have, we've had that. We have that now. And so a very big, genuine push of people around the executive table to make this work. And that started like at the time I joined. We push various different policy changes through, like our parental leave thing, just to sort of contribute in loads of different ways. There's no one thing that's going to make this happen, and there's a collection of things and demonstrating genuine intent and making these small progress steps each time. So a real positive, aspect there. And then I think, our employee networks are the best I've seen at any company I've worked at in terms of how much people embrace and how much time they spend. And so real, genuine intent from the employee side to make a difference and demonstrate and give advice to us and, and people in the, in the sort EDI team as to what would be the game changing things that we should be thinking about and, and the initial answer might be not right time, but they won't give up. So the leverage you get from those, networks really good. They also promote the sense of belonging. They really do. Yeah. Because you can belong in that network. And then it's and there's some of those networks like the Prime Network now is huge. And that's really helpful because that's full of allies, sponsors and people from the community. So it's a very mixed group of people. And the bigger they get then you're covering a percentage of the company. And so that's all really good. I think the biggest challenge is when people need to see role models in senior positions so that they can, say, yeah, I can get there. And that's why I can get that right. We've been, as I said, we two companies coming together and we've been through a number of restructurings. So that's a challenge because you might have a role model and then you restructure a business or something. And then all of a sudden, because there's not many there go on. Right. And and people might read into that okay. Are we really making progress. So you might take a step back. But I think the overriding point for me is this takes time and takes real time to make meaningful change. So you can hit a target really quickly, but have you really made sustainable, lasting change in how the place feels? So that's what we're trying to do, is change the way that the company feels. And I think we are making progress. But it's it takes time. Well, time it will take. But at least we're getting there.
Balbir Bakhshi: We're in the process. Absolutely.
Jharonne Martis: Thank you. Balbir. Carol during the illuminate program, as you are aware, we were giving a change challenge. We sample Black and Latinx colleagues in the UK and in North America about their real lived experience. This research is actually the core of how we plan to drive change through various workshops at SAG, both in the United States and in the UK, and also through this podcast series, a Sense of Belonging, which we just talked to about earlier about was the biggest theme that came out of the entire research. You facilitated the session where we discussed the sense of belonging, while bringing your authentic self to work. Yet, through the Line of Sight and the Illuminate programme, we discover from the employees that people are not able to bring their authentic self like exactly what you were talking about earlier. Instead, they change the way they look, talk, or even their names in order to fit the mould. So what are the implications when somebody that does that, what does that do to a person, their mental health, their performance and sense of self?
Carol Campagne: Well thank you. It's been really fascinating in terms of hearing, you know, from everyone around this particular topic and to kind of respond to that. It means everything. You know, if you don't have a sense of belonging. And when I think of that word belonging, belonging means ownership. It means connection. It means that whole sense of feeling, part of something. And if you don't feel part of something and if you don't own anything, there's a disconnect that absolutely takes place. And one of the things that that we know through the work that we've been doing for many, many years now at the diversity practice is that there's almost this psychological contract that takes place. It might sound like how we think you're great, but here's the thing. Leave about, we'd say maybe 55% of who you are at the door. And don't worry, we'll make up the rest of that. And then that psychological contract. I'm shifting, I'm code switching. I'm changing how I speak. I'm shortening my name. And to the point that you're making a making earlier on. Bobby, it is exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. And when we did, we did a piece of research called Different Women in Different Places. And one of the things we asked was, what is your career mean to you? And we compared black, Asian and ethnically diverse women and their white female counterparts for their white female counterparts. Being part of a community and in relationship at work was really, really important for different women. Only 18% of them said being part of a community was important to them because they didn't feel. They didn't feel kind of part of the organisations they were working for. They described it as being, I always feel like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole.
We know the organisations are talking a lot about mental health and what we also know from research that's been done by mind and other fairly prominent researchers in the areas of mental health, is that there are higher incidences of mental health for black, Asian and ethnically diverse men and women in organisations. And why is that exclusion, not feeling part of not feeling that sense of belonging. And I think equally and what I think is even has a more disastrous impact, is that for all the effort of trying to fit in, what we find is that the progression and the achievement and the lived experiences of those of that particular population is quite negative. So for all that effort, you're not getting anything by way of return, right? So those are just some of the issues. And why it's important to really pay close attention to belonging.
Jharonne Martis: So how does that negative sense of belonging then impact their job satisfaction and performance?
Carol Campagne: Well I guess if you look at, you know, your employee engagement survey, what you're going to find, and I can say this across all the sectors that I've had the privilege of working in is that the levels of engagement for black, Asian, ethnically diverse leaders, racially diverse leaders will be less. And where you find that it is consistent with the, you know, white men and women in the organisation, please go to that particular department and find out why you know what is going on. You know what is going there on there. You know how well-led are. You know, other people in that particular part of the business. But nine times out of ten, your employee engagement surveys will tell you that. And the reality is, you know, when I was an academic, I taught knowledge management. You bring your intellectual capital. That's what you bring to your world of work. If you are disconnected and demotivated, that has a direct impact on productivity. There is no DEI, but it's a kind of it's a no brainer. So these things have real consequences. In terms of the competitive advantage of every organisation.
Jharonne Martis: So what can organisations do then?
Carol Campagne: I think they need to do more. And so I think more by way of recognising, as I said, kind of previously, this is a non-negotiable. It's not a nice to have. And actually in a post-truth world, in the world that we're living in now, where diversity, equity and inclusion has been almost sidelined, it's become a political issue. You know, I think organisations really need to live their purpose and need to ensure that this remains kind of top of the agenda, because without your people, without talented individuals, then you know, who are you as an organisation? I think that's a question that also becomes a question to the point you were making around networks. I think continuing to invest in networks is critical because that's the place, one of the many places you should feel a sense of belonging. But I think even more importantly, for too long we've been focusing our attention on fix a woman, fix a black Asian ethnic diversity, that that's the focus, the focus. If we are going to really, ensure that our organisation live the values of inclusion and belonging, absolutely critical that we focus on the majority. That's why you're here, Nick.
Nick Steele: Yeah, I think that's so. But at the same point where we're looking at me again, I think that's absolutely right. And I think the difficulty with the majority, you mentioned at the beginning about the wicked, the wicked problem, the thing that has almost amazed me more than anything through the way that you sort of led us through and through your academic and personal experiences is how this is not created by 10% of the population who are deeply against people who are different to them. It is accepted by 80% of the people who normally state they. I stand for equality. I like diversity matters to me. I've had friends of different colours all my life. You know what? What are you talking about? But I think it's the lack of willingness or the fear of talking about these things that to your point, until you actually have the conversations, you don't really know how it feels to be in some of these different, these different places. And I think that the, the challenge that we have now is to say, people need to do more than say, I stand for this and then I can let it happen. I need to proactively make sure it is happening. I need to go back inside my own behaviour. Each day to see what I can move a bit forward is that I have another conversation that I wasn't going to have, and I think then, then we can add some pressure. Well, some pressure for good from the from the allies side, which is definitely needed because this, this problem is you've explained to us before, Carol hasn't really improved like some of particularly in the latter. And that's the next. But it's like it has in some of the other areas. I mean, I think without this, this focus from the coordinated group, from the top down, I mean, we need the executive sponsorship, but from the from the bottom up as well. And so everybody's days are very consciously aware of these problems. We all want an equitable company. We want a company where people enjoy their days as much as I do. If people are hiding things or not bringing themselves, they can't be doing that. And we need to be proactively seeking it out because, as you said, belt it. Sometimes you even hide it from yourself. And that's one thing that have been amazing to realise is we've all been hiding things. I miss lots of things because of my subconscious doing things. People have been missed, that they've relied on sponsors when they weren't aware. We're all not as aware as we think we are, even however well-meaning we are. And I think that as well. I've really taken away from this, this program and it's been a real eye opener.
Balbir Bakhshi: But that's why I think, like you were saying, it's not about fixing the minority. It's how do you how do you bring leaders on the journey? Yeah. As well. So leaders from the majority, but just leaders more generally. Yes. And I think that's key to the organisational change is the more you have leaders involved in that conversation and being on the journey. So this program actively the Illuminate program actively tries to do that. So it brings leaders and teams together and it brings people from inside and outside together. Yeah. So you sort of got this shared experience and the sponsorship builds. But the understanding builds. And the more you get that collective understanding across the organisation, the better the challenge for us in things like this is how do you scale it?
Nick Steele: Yeah, right.
Balbir Bakhshi: You can do this, this relatively small program. How do you scale that? How do you take some of those principles organisation wide?
Nick Steele: Yeah.
Jharonne Martis: Well we're trying through the podcast and the workshop, but I wanted to also hit on one more point that you guys were talking about. People are afraid of talking about this here. How do we break that stereotype? How do we encourage light to break through that fear?
Carol Campagne: Yeah, I'm always fascinated by the by the notion of fear. And I often think that if you put yourself in the shoes of a racially diverse leader, to walk into a room where you're the only one is probably one of the most frightening experiences ever. And so I kind of want to challenge this notion. Notion of fear. You know, I think that having conversations instead of normalising, I'm afraid, let's normalise this is important for us to do and let's have the conversations. But we need to have. Growth doesn't happen when you're in your comfort zone. Nothing changes. It's important to, you know, and as leaders, we kind of push through, get up from the comfort zone, push through the zone of fear so that we can grow and learn. But if we're just sitting in this space where everything is cosy, the transformation you talked about, it will never happen.
Balbir Bakhshi: Yeah, I think I think that's entirely right. So I think you do need to give people permission to be wrong in some of the statements they make. And assumptions they may have, and just say, okay, I got that wrong, it's fine. So you give permission to get that wrong, but also the expectation to be uncomfortable. So we expect you to have those uncomfortable conversations. So you could be in a majority group and you're just uncomfortable going there. You know, I don't know I think I'm out of my comfort zone. It's like, well, it's tough. You have to go that. So I think the both permission to get it wrong and the, you know, the expectation that we want to have an uncomfortable conversation, I think is helpful.
Jharonne Martis: So Carol, can you tell us how organisations can create a space for employees to be their authentic selves?
Carol Campagne: You know, I worked with Nick. It wasn't the first time kind of having worked with leaders, you know, from the white majority who never explored their identity, you know, don't know what it actually means to be white and male and able bodied and kind of stepping into that was a revelation. And I guess my challenge has always been to organisations and, you know, to all of us, how can you include and create a sense of belonging for others if you haven't explored what that means to you? And so I once again, I just want to emphasise just how critically non-negotiable all of us this is about all of us, not some of us. It's about every single one of us really going on that particular journey and not just going on the journey, but that it leads to an outcome. But it just would. It's not good enough this time next year. We're kind of sitting here and having the same conversation, and some of your indicators have not shifted and haven't changed. So there's going to be some big ambition here as well.
Jharonne Martis: I want to thank you each and one of you for being here today and for all your insights. Thank you for joining us. On this episode of Ripple Conversations. We've explored the importance of belonging and authenticity in the workplace. And we've heard some powerful stories and insights as we wrap up. I want to leave you with a call to action. Think about how you can contribute to creating a sense of community and belonging in your own environment. Challenge yourself to learn more about the experiences of those around you, and take actionable steps to support diversity and inclusion. Start conversations. Listen with empathy and be an advocate for change. Whether it's through mentorship, allyship, or simply be more mindful in your daily interactions. Every action counts. Together, we can create ripples of change that foster a more inclusive and authentic world. Thank you for joining us for today's episode. Until next time. I am complete.
